Re: [wEr\ Ar\ ju: fr6m] ?

Christophe Grandsire wrote:

> En réponse à Almaran Dungeonmaster <dungeonmaster@...> about soft
vs. hard "g":
>
> > That's dialect from Limburg ([`lIm.b6.r@G]) or Brabant ([`bra.bAnt]),
> > and
> > not commonly used in Hollands dutch (spoken in the big cities).
>
> What do you call Eindhoven then? :))
A major city, actually the 5th city of The Netherlands, but not commonly
considered one of the big cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht).
You have to draw the line somewhere...

>> Only southeners used the "soft g" as we call it...
>
> A mistake I've seen commonly among Dutch people is this
> misconception.
> First,
> if you add the Flemish, who also have a soft g, you get quite a
> lot of people
> pronouncing the g "soft".
Which is besides the point, because I was talking about the Dutch people. I
never said anything about the Flemish. They have soft "G" as default indeed.

> Second, I've listened to many Dutch people from many
> parts of the Netherlands, and the only one I've heard until now
> that really has
> a hard g is from Friesland! All the others, despite their claims,
> naturally
> pronounce soft g's, except at the end of words (where consonnants
> get unvoiced
> anyway).
The hard-soft distinction is not merely a matter of voicing! I am still
hearing a difference between the "g" as pronounced by Limburgers and those
pronounced by other Dutch people (mainly Hollanders, i.e. people from the
North- and South Holland provinces).
Part of my family is from Belgium, and half the others are from Brabant. I
know the difference between my 'g' and theirs, as I speak both dialects. The
southern "g" is way more frontal and causes less friction in the throat. I
think the real difference between hard and soft 'g' may be in other
qualities such as place of articulation and not just voicing (hard "g" being
more guttural).

> And all grammars of Dutch I've read consider the
> so-called soft g as standard, and the hard g as a peculiarity > of some
Northern dialects

Well, Hollands is the common form of Dutch, for historical reasons, and
because most of the population lives in the Holland provinces. What we
usually call ABN ("algemeen beschaafd Nederlands", or "general civilized
Dutch") is most similar to the common forms found among Holland dialects.

> (the same for 'ij' pronounced /Ej/ or /aj/).
Yes, the /aj/ (Rotterdam), /Ej/ (Amsterdam) or even /E:/(The Hague)
pronounciation for /Ei/ is definitely non-standard.

Maarten