Re: National states (was Re: Colectives...)

Carlos Thompson wrote:

> Well, the nation(ality) issue is a very complex one.  When France was formed
> as a kingdom and then as a republic, some sense of being French existed.
I would think that the case is rather a little different.  The concept of"nationhood" is a
very recent one, when you're talking about European
civilization.  It was not until only a few hundred years ago that people
in England or Francefirst saw themselves as English or French rather than people
from London or people from Provence or Normandy.  It was only with
the advent of the French Revolution in Europe that really got the whole
concept of a single national identity rolling -- indeed, before that, and
even afterwards, some, nobody thought it was strange that a monarch
who spoke a totally different language would rule over them.  King
George the first of England never spoke a word of English -- he spoke
to his ministers of Parliament in French, and for most of his reign he
was more concerned about losing his possessions in Germany than he
was about ruling the British Empire (or, what one might call the British
state at that time).  It is only in the modern world that language and
nationhood (and consequently to a large extent culture, as so much of
culture is wrapped up in language) have become so thoroughly intertwined
that it is difficult for us to conceptualize of any other state of things.

> There were, maybe, some American feeling in the founders of the United
> States which can be similar with an "American" nationality.  But most US
> people, share a culture and a language adquired when their parents came to
> the land.  Any how, there are many Afro-Americans, Italo-Americnas,
> Irish-Americans, Latinos/Hispanics/Chicanos, Chiness, and so on.
The recent trend of identifying oneself as a member of this or thatethnic group is just
that: only recent.  At the time of the American Revolution,
there was a definite sense in the minds of Americans that they were not
just the heirs of the British culture:  they had in many ways become
different, as they had emigrated in many respects for the express purpose
of fouding the "city on a hill" -- the ideal Platonic state, done Christian
style (though note that they didn't want Plato's Republic).  Such phraseology
(the "city on a hill") was used and is still used -- as I said, Americans like
to think of themselves as having a special mission in the world to elevate
civilization and justice around the world (whether they do this or not,
is, of course, a separate issue altogether).

But let me say this in your behalf:  Americans are perhaps more than
many countries concerned with each of their individual family geneologies.
My former German teacher (who's natively German) said that he was
surprised to find that even the checkout people in supermarkets, when
they learned he was German, would go on and on about how their
great-great-grand parents came over from Germany in such and such
a year.  He found it strange that a people would be so preoccupied with
the past like this.  But I feel that this interest in one's past (as I could
technically call myself a Scottish-American, though I've never been
to Scotland and my family hasn't lived there since before the Revolution)
should not cloud the fact that Americans also feel a great pull to associate
themselves as something unique, as other comments made here would
also suggest.

> And the only thing you must fullfit for being concidered a Colombian, when
> you, as foreigne, live in Colombia is speaking Spanish (even if with heavy
> accent) and saying you love Colombia.  (Adquiring passport is another
> story.)
Ditto for America, mutatis mutandis, except that there's more of an
ideological turn to "loving" America.


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Tom Wier <artabanos@...>
ICQ#: 4315704   AIM: Deuterotom
Website: <http://www.angelfire.com/tx/eclectorium/>
"Cogito ergo sum, sed credo ergo ero."

We look at [the Tao], and do not see it;
  Its name is the Invisible.
                 - Lao Tsu, _Tao Te Ching_

Nature is wont to hide herself.
                 - Herakleitos
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